Nobody 2

Today on Art of the Cut we’re speaking with editor Elísabet Ronaldsdóttir and first assistant editor, Matt Absher about editing Nobody 2.

Elisabet has been on Art of the Cut before. Elisabet for Atomic Blonde, Shang Chi and the Legend of the 10 Rings, Bullet Train, and The Fall Guy. Elisabet has also edited Love Hurts, Kate, Deadpool 2, and John Wick.

Matt was on Art of the Cut with Elisabet for The Fall Guy. He was first assistant editor with Elisabet on all the aforementioned productions and has also been a first assistant editor on Us and Nope.

Elisabet, I want to ask you first about the opening montage. Obviously this is a sequel, and some people may know the character pretty well, but other people may be coming to this without really knowing who our main character is, so we start with a little montage. Can you talk about how long you felt that needed to be and the music you put under it and what you felt that needed to accomplish?

RONALDSDOTTIR: The main task is obviously to introduce Hutch’s state of mind in regards to his family and work and his absence from his family. We went through so many renditions regarding length.

It’s just so beautifully shot by Callan Green and Timo Tjahjanto, our director, obviously, but we did try many renditions with more backstory, more wife, more kids, less backstory, less kids - back and forth.

Then we had to find a way to bring Hutch more into it, which is why we went into the (phone) text thing. We wanted to pre-button the texting to show that they are in a place as a couple where they can’t really communicate anymore.

So we actually created those text screens from different takes of the original text that it’s buttoned with. Then we had help from visual effects to change the background and change the body and stuff. But we tried many things with that opening. We also had to test a lot of music.

In the beginning there was a certain pressure because the first movie was so well received and people loved it. We were trying to find the way not to repeat it. 

In the beginning, we did a lot of experiments with music. We tried to modernize the music more. That opening piece was rerecorded. Our composer did a version for a young contemporary voice to sing.

Matt, it sounds like you were working remotely from Elisabet. Were you on set?

ABSHER: No, no. What was unique about this film and unique to Elisabet’s abilities, is that we were still in post - deep in post - on another Universal project at the time that we started dailies on this one, so Elisabet was finishing a previous film for Universal and juggling dailies and assembling a cut. A really refined cut, I must say, by the end. So that was pretty intense.

We had two storage systems and were in dailies all morning, then in post all afternoon and into the evening. So it was a lot.

It was only 35 days of photography, but we had every gadget going to make it all work. Obviously Flow and Evercast and Jump and Q-Take - every remote platform that is available we were using for the whole project. We needed to coordinate Reykjavik, Winnipeg, Los Angeles, and Indonesia.

Just in terms of the larger picture of it, it was a challenge. But as Elisabet said, the DP and the stunt team were really well prepared, so that 35 days, went really quickly.

They knew what they wanted, and they got in and they got out. It was manageable, but it was pretty remarkable to watch Elisabet juggle two shows at their peak moments: the beginning and the end.

Then I left the show. I had a long-planned family trip to Asia. My unique perspective on this film was that I went through dailies, then went through over a month of post.

Then I didn’t come back until I saw it in theaters, which was great because I’m usually right there in the pocket, and I get the privilege of watching a film get fixed, let’s be honest. But this one I wasn’t sure how she was going to get out of this puzzle.

Then I saw it in the theater and I’d forgotten what we had to be fixed. That was a pleasure for me.

Lisa Kwon and Thom Kyle both were the assistant editors for the bulk of post. All credit to them for for landing it.

RONALDSDOTTIR: They had big shoes to fill - both of them, and they did, which was amazing. You are not alone at this thing. You have directors and amazing producers. Kelly McCormick and David Leitch from 87 North.

I’m especially not alone when Matt’s there because he is my comfort zone to have around me. Things are easy.

Talk to me a little bit about the structure of the film: how long you’re going to hold the audience from what they came to see – which is Hutch doing what he does  - compared to the need to set up the relationships that are necessary for the rest of the movie to pay off successfully. You’ve got that balance to work with.

RONALDSDOTTIR: It’s trying different things. We knew it from the beginning the biggest problem was getting to the juicy part. People wanted that. The director and the producers knew that, which is why they shot a lot of action to put them there.

We shot a lot of family and we actually had to shorten that just so we wouldn’t tip into a kitchen sink drama in the first half an hour. So it was just finding the balance there.

When do you have enough time with the family? When do you have enough information and when have you invested enough?

There’s no truth to it. It’s just trial. You land somewhere where most people are  satisfied.

Did you have to kill a lot of darlings? Time wise, the movie is very tight. It’s a nice, tight, what, 90 minutes?

RONALDSDOTTIR: It’s 89 minutes. I think you always kill some darlings. That happens in every single movie. And we did kill like two of them in this one.

But we did tighten a lot of what was shot, but no, we didn’t kill too many darlings and we never kill the action. There were some family moments that we decided we’ve got enough with what we have in the movie now that we didn’t need that.

Tell me a little bit about utilizing the talents of Matt Asher and what you rely on him for.

RONALDSDOTTIR: He is the captain of this ship. He really is. And even though his title is assistant, I’m telling you, he’s not assisting anything. He is just running the ship.

Just the amount of technical knowledge you need to receive dailies - and especially now we’re on another film and it’s shot on film, this is the person that is knowledgeable about every single aspect of post. So he runs it. I’m not gonna get in this way.

ABSHER: Thank you for saying that, but really what you’re saying is that Matt is old and he has a lot of experience.

Something that hasn’t been noted is that Elisabet is a co-producer on this film.

I was going to get to that. I noticed that in the credits. What was the purpose of that credit and what did you do?

RONALDSDOTTIR: I’m very grateful for that credit. It’s just a nod from the producers saying thank you for what you actually put into that movie - solving those big, knotty problems.

There is always a problem. Every editor can tell you about problems being solved. It’s not because the script was wrong. It’s not necessarily because anything was filmed wrong. It’s just the movie is a completely different language from the written word, or from individual takes or scenes.

So you have to find the way to translate all of that into the story the script told us. It’s like any language. If I was gonna translate anything into Chinese, even the words aren’t in the same place. I think I’m a good translator.

ABSHER: I do know that every pickup request that Elisabet made was covered. So often they get ignored or dismissed.

RONALDSDOTTIR: That’s so true, but because we work with people we know very well, and I had a very good relationship with the director without ever meeting him. Also, it’s because Matt is really good to get those requests on the paper.

Then did those requests make it into the movie?

RONALDSDOTTIR: Yes. You don’t want to overstep the director’s vision, so we are very careful about what we request. We try to make sure that it’s something we cannot live without.

Can you provide some examples?

RONALDSDOTTIR: It might be closeups that you need to explain something. It might be shots you need, like when you see that you’re going to have a problem connecting day to night.

But it’s not like you just request it. You’re obviously discussing it. We put it on a list then we discuss why. You have to answer for your requests. You can’t just go on some power trip. You have to know why you want it and make sure it doesn’t overstep.

ABSHER: I could tell you stories! Elisabet believes in it. She’s not going to overstep as she says, but she’s still going to fight for it. And there’ve been some real fights. And there were some instances with really serious payoffs.

Some of these could be called inserts even, but they play a really integral role, so it comes from credibility. You know, if the filmmakers feel that the voice requesting this is credible, then they’re more inclined to do it.

You have to quickly demonstrate your credibility. I think that’s why filmmakers take a serious look at any request, because some of it can be expensive.

It’s one of the reasons why you edit while they’re shooting. Right? So that you can see those things?

RONALDSDOTTIR: Also remember we are super relaxed in comparison to what’s going on on set. We sometimes have to remember the stress factor of people shooting this movie or working on, which is a completely different beast shooting it than editing it.

But if you can just gently push and remind them why you’re there. It’s to protect them and have their back. And also because we worked with the same people for so long they know we’re not bullshitting. They even ask us: Are we covered? Do you have everything you need?

Do you want us to pick something up?

ABSHER: And stunts, I have to say, are very generous with Elisabet because they know her and they’re sending previs and choreographed cuts, practice runs to her really, really early. 

RONALDSDOTTIR: Absolutely. It’s so helpful just for me to understand what they want, and what they’re aiming for. Understanding the choreography.

Elisabet, I know you’re a huge proponent of stunt people and stunt work and stunt coordinators.

RONALDSDOTTIR: I love doing stunts. I have so much respect for all the hard work they do and the beauty of what they deliver. It’s amazing. It’s art. And I respect that.

So, Matt, I know that you kind of stepped out of this movie for a brief period, but now you’re on another movie. What are some of the things that you see from Elisabet that you’re learning? Obviously you’re very experienced yourself, but what are some things maybe other people could learn from the experience of being in the room as she negotiates something or deals with a director, or collaborates with someone.

ABSHER: Elisabet’s talking is done by her cutting. I think it must be gut wrenching to be shooting a film on set. It’s a real battle just to get a film made, and then every day is stressful on set.

It must be really anxiety inducing having a relationship with an editor that you maybe unsure of or you haven’t worked with. Filmmakers very quickly - In my experience - know Wwhen they’re in good hands, even with the small choice or even a request or a comment from editorial.

Even really early on before maybe a filmmaker has seen and anything will reassure them that this person not only knows what they’re doing, but they are doing it for the film. 

Elisabet is about the characters in a way that a filmmaker will quickly recognize. She’s not on the director’s side so much as the film’s side.

That can put her at odds with choices that they’ve made or potentially introduce some sort of tension, if she’s suggesting that they should think about another choice for the character’s sake, the story sake.

I think she does it in a way that is authentic and credible enough that they’re not defensive. They get it right away. I think it speaks to her talent and how tenacious she can be.

I can tell you stories where she can fight really hard for something, but it’s not like a political fight because it’s a fight about the story or the characters. So it becomes a discussion.

I’ve heard it described that: the only ego in the room should be the film’s ego. 

RONALDSDOTTIR: There you go. That’s a good description. Thank you for saying that, but I am completely against fear in the editing room. It doesn’t mean that I’m not in a complete breakdown in the beginning! I’m like, “Who hired me? What is happening here? I can’t do anything with that! That’s too complicated!”

I go through all of that, same as everyone, probably, but fear of discussion does not belong in an editorial. It just doesn’t because it’s so important to be able to talk freely. I think one of the reasons why I don’t get into a conflict is that we just try out things.

Sometimes when it’s a young or a new director, you just have to make sure they understand this is not ruining the movie. Nothing gets lost. It’s all there.

But look, here’s a version where we took everything out. because especially for directors who have spent so much time with the film, they get super protective.

You have to respect that. Then you work with directors who just love everything they’ve shot. They love cinema, you know? So you also have to respect that.

Matt, remember that shot on John Wick? I think I cut out a second every day for the whole post so they didn’t even notice.

It also reminds me of a discussion, Elisabet, that you and I have talked about, which is that you feel the director needs to push you. You need to have something to push against, and the director also needs that push. 

RONALDSDOTTIR: You want the movie to be the best version of itself. Whether it’s Matt or me or the director or the producers, we are all part of an audience, so our reactions are always gonna relate to some other audience.

One of the things that I’ve talked about with many editors is the idea of keeping someone alive - keeping a character alive - so the audience remembers that they’re there. One of those was I noticed that in the middle of a fun sequence with the family that we cut back to grandpa in the cabin to kind of remind us that he’s separate. Talk about that idea. There was another part of the movie I was thinking that maybe even Hutch disappeared for a while. You’ve got to figure out how long can we be away from one character or another character?

RONALDSDOTTIR: Yep, absolutely. It’s very important. It’s so different from one movie to another. How far you can take things or stay away from main characters. I think it kind of also just is a built in rhythm, not only with me, but also the people that shot it.

Someone shot grandpa in that cabin for me to use there. You’re writing a script and one of the characters in this case just wasn’t available for filming, then you have to find a solution.

How can we exactly keep him alive in that sequence? So they shot him in the cabin, and we used it there, but we spent some really serious time on explaining that cabin, and then we just cut that scene out.

There was a scene explaining why that cabin was there, or what the purpose of it was and what it was for?

RONALDSDOTTIR: There were actually two scenes explaining that. Then we cut them both out. We spent time on it. We did ADR and some cabin scenes just to make sure we had all the information. But it came down to: when are we getting to the juicy bit? Are we staying too long just to explain the cabin?

Does it need explaining? Does it ruin people’s enjoyment of the movie if they don’t have a clue what the history behind that cabin is? You just go through all of it.

And I actually really like just sitting and talking through a movie I’m working on. Because you realize really fast if you’re staying too long, if you’re explaining too much. I’m not alone. I’m working both with the director and producers and then the studio.

Matt, she’s talking about showing you these scenes. She’s clearly an expert at what she does, but she’s asking for your advice. How do you couch that or what do you see?

ABSHER: Usually because I’m only seeing a small section and I’m not involved in the larger picture dialogue she’s having with the filmmakers, so it’s really just about: “Does this work?”  It’s really: is everything that should be there, there?

And are we getting from A to B to C in this sequence? So it’s sort of more technical. How does it flow? Is it coherent?

Is somebody lower than you, Matt, bringing in all the dailies and doing all that stuff so you’re not even seeing that? Or are you seeing all the dailies?

RONALDSDOTTIR: Matt doesn’t work by “high” or “low” or hierarchy or anything like that. I think that’s where we really come together and I think we run an amazing show. Every person is important.

ABSHER: That’s a very good point. And it’s from the top down. We don’t run a hierarchical room. It’s all about strengths. No matter what your title is… I want to get home at a reasonable hour, so if you’re good at something, that’s what you do.

But it does require someone to have a sort of a broader picture. So yes, I see the dailies. I don’t do ScriptSyncing, so I don’t have the same intimacy like Lisa did on this because she scripted it, then, because she has that intimacy, she took on coordinating the ADR sessions.

She knows the script inside out and what was shot inside out because she spent weeks and weeks ScriptSyncing.

RONALDSDOTTIR: We had done amazing crew on this, but let’s not forget that Matt built the foundation of the work.

ABSHER: It comes down from Elisabet. We like to set a tone quickly, so I let everyone know how we like to work and people like to work with us because we like to work with them.

RONALDSDOTTIR: I think it’s just because we never scream at them.

Talk to me about the use of ScriptSync. Do you use it in the initial editing or just revisions?

RONALDSDOTTIR: No, I use it a lot. It took me some time to take ScriptSync into my workflow, but I would say now it’s really important for me because you can so easily go between takes if you’re looking for a certain way people say things or certain way they do things.

It just really helps me stay in my flow, not having to go into bins and look at timecodes to find out where things are.

Is there a key to using it, and staying in the flow of the scene itself? Do you edit straight from the ScriptSync? Or match back to a bin?

RONALDSDOTTIR: Oh no, that’s a misunderstanding. I watch all the dailies, but then I just love using ScriptSync because I can find things easily.

If I click on a line that I want to check, I can go between takes without opening anything, but I can actually cut straight from that into the timeline.

So what’s been so smooth and easy about it is that I don’t have to go necessarily in the bins. Because in the beginning you rough everything out and that’s what I use the bin for.

Then I’m thinking, “I wish that character was a bit softer” or something, so I can easily comb through all the takes.

So you’re using your initial structure, then finding a new replacement for something. Makes sense. There’s a lot of licensed music in this film. Can you talk about choosing that or the discussions you had with your music supervisor about energy and tone …and budget?

RONALDSDOTTIR: So we had an amazing music editor, Angie Rubin, who helped us mainly with the temp scores. It’s always a headache to temp a movie, and the reason we have to temp it is because we have to sell it to other people before the composer, Dominic Lewis, is ready. We have producers, we have studios, we have test screenings.

All this temp score was really hard, but we’ll also get help from Dom, who sent us some stuff he thought could fit. Then it was the needle drops and that’s always back and forth. Some things are too expensive. You can remake expensive songs and it takes down the price a bit.

But we also - from the beginning - talked about remaking some of the music to make it more contemporary, to take us away from the beautiful music world that was in the first film. That was based on him playing records in his basement.

So now it’s a summer holiday, so the needle drops are also a bit different. Also, in the town they’re older because the idea was that the town is a bit isolated, so we try to use a lot of old music there. And a lot of experiments, both just finding the right tone.

You mentioned you had a great relationship with Timo, even though you hadn’t met him before. Can you talk about being introduced to that relationship or how that relationship started?

RONALDSDOTTIR: Well, I did watch all his movies and I could really see that he is a movie maker. You can see it from afar and he has massive experience outside Hollywood. Hollywood is a different beast from Iceland or Indonesia or even Canada.

But he had an amazing experience from Indonesia and I watched all his movies. He made some amazing movies there. They’re all too long. It’s kind of the first thing I told them.

We would absolutely not go over two hours and we certainly didn’t. I absolutely enjoyed his esthetics, and he actually does a lot of drama in those action movies and horror movies that he’s done.

He’s very on story. You can see how much he cares for character, how much he allows them to breathe, etc., so I was very impressed with Timo before I met him.

Then we didn’t meet for a while because we were doing another movie while they shot, even though we were doing the dailies.

Directors can be nervous and they should be. It’s a precious thing to them: the movie. So I think it’s very important to make them relax early. We actually made an amazing crew teaser for them to show to everyone so that they see you’re making a movie.

We do that every time. We like to make a crew teaser right after the middle of the shoot, just to pump the crew with some energy and but mostly to tell the director, you’re doing great. It’s gonna be amazing. It’s a movie.

In the beginning of my career I would literally throw up if anyone had to watch anything that I cut. I was so nervous I could not stay in the cinema if something I worked on was playing.

But that’s common. I think even if it’s rough, you sent it to the director just to say, “Look, it’s going to work. It’s going to be great.” I think all of that helps also building the relationship and trust.

They might send a note back and saying, “Maybe we can do this,” which is more work for Matt than me. Just do some changes, send it back again. It’s all just a part of telling them it’s going to be fine.

How do you choose your projects? I would think that at this point you’re pretty much able to pick and choose. Was it Timo’s treatment of drama in his films, and the way that you could see his assuredness as a director?

RONALDSDOTTIR: Absolutely. I mean, we were happy to work with Timo, but Timo is the sweetest guy in town. He’s so open and he is just one of those rare people that really, really, really loves cinema. Nothing makes me happier than working with people that love cinema.

Speaking of people who love cinema, Matt, what are some of the things you look for in anyone who joins the Ronaldsdottir/Absher team?

ABSHER: Sense of humor first and foremost. As Elisabet was saying, we are very non-hierarchical, and we like to be a team.

We like to work to each other’s strengths and some assists get that, and some of them sort of don’t, because it requires you owning it. You’ve got to own what you’re taking responsibility for and see it all the way through.

RONALDSDOTTIR: That’s very important for us as well, not to hang there all night.

ABSHER: This is a freelance industry and as I have said before, the golden rule of freelance is it’s never about the job. It’s always about the next job. So you really have to squeeze every opportunity you can out of working with a new crew and new workflow, new software.

That’s an opportunity that Elisabet and I like to give and expect people to sort of step up and raise their game, then walk into it a better position on the next one. We want the good guys to win,  just like Timo. That’s the same vibe we try to keep in editorial. Some assistants get it, some of them don’t.

Some of them sort of think just getting the job is enough and they sort of lose sight of the fact that this is a freelance industry. We’re all out of work as soon as a job stops and you’re only as good as your last film, so it’s tough and there’s a lot of really, really talented people to compete against.

Do you want to discuss solving any of those difficult problems that Matt mentioned?

RONALDSDOTTIR: Those are not the main thing really in the movie. It’s not. It’s what we do. We are there to fix things that come up because if that wasn’t the case, why hire us at all? This is the essence of what we do is that translation. What the crew shot was just amazing.

Those people worked their asses off and they got everything that was needed. That shows in the movie we have.

This is what we do and we don’t do it alone. We do it in collaboration with a lot of people. Some things are fixed in sound. Some of it is fixed with the help of visual effects.

Lots of it. And some of it is fixed because we experiment and try to figure out how to get from A to C without going to B.

Elisabet and Matt, thank you so much for joining me on Art of the Cut. It has been such a pleasure having you. And congratulations on a really fun project. I watched it in a full theater on a Sunday night.

RONALDSDOTTIR: Oh, that’s lovely. Yes, I like a full theater. And I like that you like it. Thank you.